1 - pretty accurate
2 - Disagree that this is required. It is there, for those of us who want to hack/contrib, but not required.
3 - How is this any different from any other synthesizer rig lol
4 - A good idea, and it gets suggested quite a lot I think?
5 - Again, disagree that this you need to build one from scratch first. Though it is definitely true that, like every cool toy we ever got in the 70s, Some Assembly Is Required.
Sorry @gilrain but I find all those bullet points to be posed in a very negative way. Maybe this is because of some level of frustration you are feeling which will colour our opinion but I do not recognise these as common feelings from the community.
Indeed there is an expectation that users understand this is an open software and hardware platform with a lot of ongoing development but the stable releases are generally pretty stable and feature rich with substantial issues resolved very promptly.
This is only true of the development and testing branches. The stable major release branches are only updated with tested patches that fix significant issues or sometimes add some functionality that is desired by significant quantity of users before the next stable release.
Many (maybe most) owners of the official Zynthian kit are far from this position yet enjoy the device without compliant. There are some that find their workflows are not fully supported and they may get more involved with this forum but they have proven to be the minority over the past few years. Indeed it is the project aspiration that this is a plug-and-play musical device for the musician, producer, etc. and not a challenge requiring technical skills. This forum tends to discuss the technical challenges and resolutions and because of that there are often quite technical suggestions but where a user is more artistically inclined than technical the forum resonses tend to change tack to provide the appropriate level of support.
Most normal users do not do this. (I do but then I am not normal!) If the Zynthian is used in the ways it has been tested then it does tend to work and as mentioned before, substantial issues with the latest stable release are resolved promptly.
It is a good idea to research before you buy. (My wife is often frustrated with the quantity of research I do but we tend to keep our goods for decades as a result of carfull selection.) I don’t think this is mandatory but it is certain wise advice.
This is not the normal progression. Yes there are some who build thier own devices first (I am one of them) and choose to purchase the official kit but most either stick with thier custom devices or buy the kit first. It is actually more challenging to build a custom device and the support for that must come from the community (although we get a lot of support from the commercial side too which demonstrates how magnanimous our wonderful @jofemodo is).
I really appreciate how frustrating it can be to purchase a device that doesn’t meet expectations but the difference here is that, with the right engagement, the community is very eager to help and fix such issues. Of course, like any community, that eagerness may be constrained by aviailability of time, skill, experience, etc. and an interest in seeing that particular element implemented (i.e. a degree of self interest).
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It’s not my frustration, it’s sympathy for the people who want to throw Zynthian out the window, because I think I know why they feel that way.
I love Zynthian as a concept, as a DIY project and as community software. I’m very grateful to the developers and the community, it’s my favourite DIY project. I use it as a synthesizer (it’s my number one synth now) and as a guitar and vocal effect. Meanwhile I’m constantly building and expanding it, learning a lot from it and really enjoying it.
What I don’t like is the business model that is built on it. Professional and expensive hardware, nice website, good marketing, but you can see that a lot of people don’t know what it really is. Understandable, because the expected difficulties (which I have collected in bullet points) are not pointed out anywhere.
I could tick all the boxes I have listed - and that is exactly why I don’t buy the product. For that kind of money, I’d rather buy a “real” synthesizer, and this one stays DIY.
Finally, sorry for the sarcasm…
The fact that these branches are generally under a lot of discussion on any given day might have contributed to the perception here? It’s probably pretty easy for us nerds to forget that there are actually keyboard-playing musicians who are NOT also obsessed with electronics and tech more generally. :>
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Hi community!
From the very beginning, the business model we’ve built around zynthian has been the same:
Selling DIY kits for building a zynthian device. Nothing more. We don’t sell finished units and we never include the software with the kit. And the reason is not we are not capable of producing finished units, obviously. It’s our way of telling the buyers that zynthian requires some tinkering. It requires some tinkering in the hardware side and also, some times, in the software side too.
I think it’s a honest business and i try to be clear enough about what zynthian is. For those who don’t like the business model, i must say this small business model allows me to be fully dedicated to zynthian (don’t think for a minute i’m becoming rich, mates!!) and also allows the community to grow globally, adding less technically skilled members, what is helping us to close the gap and taking zynthian to a wider audience that include musicians, producers, home players, etc.
Without the official kits, zynthian would be a very different thing, and i don’t think it would be better, but you are free to have your own opinion.
Regarding the software, as @riban has explained, we try to make stable releases as stable as possible, and i think they are really stable most of times for many use-cases. But we don’t like to put limits everywhere and prefer users “enjoy” finding the limits by themselves. We like freedom, and freedom implies some risks.
I really try to avoid customers being upset and normally refund those who bought a zynthian kit without realizing the simple facts about it. Luckily, they are not too many. FYI, the “Terms & Conditions” from the shop say this:
We sell DIY (Do It Yourself) kits, not finished products. We assume you have read and understood the building tutorial and have the required skills for building the kit/parts you are ordering. We are not responsible of any parts broken in the building process. It’s your responsibility to take care and follow the instructions carefully. We have reviewed the building instructions so every step is clearly explained and documented, anyway, if you have any doubts, please, stop building and ask for help.
You can send your support questions by email (support@zynthian.org) or better, in the Zynthian forum:
https://discourse.zynthian.org
The zynthian community is quite active and you will probably receive an answer in a few hours.
When receiving the package, if it looks damaged, you should reject it, or at less, take detailed pictures showing the damage and the shipping labels, so we can claim for the damages to the shipping company.
If some parts are missing from the package, we will send you the missed parts as soon as possible with no charge for you.
If some part is received faulty or broken we will replace it. In such a case, you must send some pictures from the faulty part and explain your problem. If it’s not clear enough, perhaps you must send the faulty part for inspection. Anyway, if the part is really broken, it will be replaced with no extra cost for you.
If you are not happy with the product, you have 30 days (from the reception date) to return it and we will refund you. For doing so, you must disassemble the kit and send it back in its original state to the address above. You have to pay the returning costs and we wont refund you until we have received the product. If some part is damaged along the process or transport, we would do a partial refund, depending on the damage. Using a good packaging for the returned product will reduce the risk.
All the best,
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I understand all this. I just see some of your dissatisfied customers here and I’m trying to point out the communication problems.
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I didn’t mean to say that Zynthian v5 is bad and not even that it won’t become ready eventually: just that it isn’t ready for live performance with external MIDI gear as-is, out of the box, right now, as of this writing in February 2024. The hardware seems more than capable but the software needs some work still.
Admittedly, my specific use case is more complex than is typical. But what I needed as the most absolute bare minimum is just a USB MIDI host / router.
Here’s how to get a cheap open source device that will just act as a USB MIDI host and route MIDI traffic by simply echoing all MIDI signals that come in from any connected MIDI device on all channels to all other connected MIDI devices except the sender:
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Get a Raspberry Pi Zero, power adapter and 8 GB or larger micro SD card. (I haven’t tested with smaller) Any model should work. A powered USB hub might be another good purchase if you have a lot of devices to connect. Also, you’ll need some way to connect a monitor and keyboard to the Raspberry Pi Zero for initial setup purposes, even though I don’t connect any when actually using it.
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Add this hat and case: https://www.waveshare.com/usb-hub-box.htm
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Install Raspberry Pi OS Lite; the headerless version (no desktop environment) for your model of Pi Zero: https://www.raspberrypi.com/software/
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Install this script for the MIDI signal routing: GitHub - dmessent/pi-midi-host-no-bt: Setup a Raspberry Pi as a headless MIDI USB host, without bluetooth midi support (suitable for Raspberry Pi Zero)
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Install this script for safe shutdown: Ways / rpi-readonly · GitLab
And that’s it. That’s what I’ve got replacing the MIDI Thru chains on the Zynthian v5 for my band practices right now. It won’t do synthesis on its own (it has no sound at all) but it will route the MIDI traffic for now until Zynthian’s actually ready for that.
However, I do see that the MIDI device support on Zynthian OS is being worked on and eventually, I hope the Zynthian will be doing this job instead of the Raspberry PI Zero I’ve got. I do not mean to be badmouthing the Zynthian and the great work that’s being done to improve it. I’m just saying that right now, it seems to be in an alpha or early beta stage of development, at least for the use case of live performance with external MIDI gear, not yet production ready. Hopefully should be sometime soon though! 
The cheap Raspberry Pi Zero based USB MIDI host / router I’m currently using is something I will probably want to keep around basically forever just for experimental purposes even after the Zynthian eventually replaces it for live performance because it’s just handy to have around.
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Hi @BenMcLean!
Zynthian has never been a MIDI router. I shared your desire for this and hence we are adding some features that will allow this (or similar). Zynthian is a synth, MIDI processor, audio processor, audio mixer, step sequencer, MIDI and audio recorder and player, etc. but pure MIDI routing is not in the current stable release. I recommend you continue to implement that with your previous, working solution and await a stable release that provides the functionality you desire.
I think you are still being a tad harsh saying,
There are many amateur and professional musicians and producers using Zynthian for that exact purpose. I think it would be more accurate to say, “Zynthian isn’t ready for my use for live performance with external MIDI gear”.
Zynthian code is developed rapidly and we love sharing the new goodness with everyone but that can lead to users adopting features that are incomplete or not fully tested. It is absolutely fair to expect the current stable release to perform as described in the user documentation (on the wiki) and where it doesn’t, this forum and the issue tracking system are good places to highlight this. Expecting it to do stuff that is not documented feels like a bit too much of an ask 
.
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What does “MIDI processor” mean? When I’d first read that, I thought that would mean the same thing as a MIDI host / router (signals could come in, get processed, then go out) but apparently not. Anyway, once the external device support features currently in development become stable, hopefully the Zynthian should work as a MIDI host / router then, right?
A MIDI processor is a module that takes MIDI input, processes it in some way then pokes it out. An example is “MIDI Chord” which turns a single MIDI note to multiple notes, e.g. a major triad. MIDI processors can be inserted in a chain before any synths or can be placed into a MIDI chain to process physical (or network) MIDI inputs and feed various targets including physical MIDI outputs. This behaviour is much improved in the oram development branch but still works to a point in the 2401 stable release.
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Hopefully I should be able to get involved in testing that soon!
or more easy use a
iConnectivity mioXM
In DIN-MIDI days there was the very nice
MidiTemp PM88 MIDI-router…
I personally think that using Zynthian as a MIDI host/router only is a mistake as there are better tools, as you pointed out, that can do exactly that particular task without a greater complexity. It’s the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle that should apply to all engineering and development projects.
If enjoy having all the tools that Zynthian offers me to experiment and do things that would otherwise be almost impossible. It gives me all the building blocks to do almost anything I can imagine and I’m more limited by my incapability than by the technical limitations of Zynthian,
I have also read the unfair comparison with multi-million-dollar companies products. It is much easier to close a finished product, with powerful processors that you cannot hack, with a limited amount of synths that you cannot change. It’s a take it or leave it business model, of course with good products for which you pay also a good amount. But forget about MIDI routing, forget about adding features you might fins useful. Oh!! but everybody will say they are awesome unconditionally and that is something most of the people fall for. And please read their licenses: everybody in the industry is (ab)using the open source software built by people like @jofemodo and @riban … it’s just that they don’t mention it anywhere 
I have been using open source forever and try to be grateful to the people that spend their lives giving out their knowledge and savoir-faire. I would never use this tone, if I want to change something, I ask for it politely and try to be empathic. If I want it so hard I just fork the project and my code speaks for me, I simply try to cooperate. And if it does not fit my needs, I just walk away and respect their opinions.
Sorry for bending your ears, I will keep on enjoying the niceness of this community and their deep knowledge for making a gadget like Zynthian. Kudos!
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That is exactly what I did with Zynthian. There were features that I could see in my minds eye as being beneficial but it can be challenging to convince those with a lot of time and passion invested in the code. So features like the step sequencer, audio player, mixer and SMF player / recorder (current version) came into existance because I did exactly that. I forked, developed and demonstrated and my show and tell was appreciated and folded into the core code. We are richer for our combined, respectful contributions. I am lucky to be able to contribute code (and docs and support) whilst others have different tallents that include artistic endevours (UI design, sample audio / MIDI), web dev (webconf), blue-sky-thinking (new ideas for workflows), etc. We all take and many of us give. And we all love each other the more for this symbiotic relationship. 
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Yeah, I wouldn’t be buying and assembling the Zynthian to only use it as a MIDI router. It would be overkill for that. The point of my buying the kit was to go beyond just MIDI routing to do a number of other jobs as well. However, if it can’t first replace the essential functionality of my existing device then I can’t go on to using it for more in addition or at least I can’t depend on it for that yet.
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I personally would be grateful to read posts in this tone. We are passionate because we all have the feeling that we can do great things and go beyond the accepted standards. This requires patience, persistence and good will.
I couldn’t say summarise it better. Thanks Riban for your unpayable effort.
I’ve met him. He’s not so great.
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I’ve met him too and I concur. 
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I think we have a bit of common need here - I am also attempting to do some midi routing on my Zynthian and I’m still unclear exactly what’s gonna happen once I get my PD patch sorted out and put it on my zynth - I’m hoping it’s as simple as, it catches the notes my FCB-1010 is sending and converts them into CC high and CC low messages on specific CCs that can be used to learn in chains. My specific need is to convert a note into CC64 (sustain pedal) so I can just use the pedalboard as my sole floor control.
Currently this is also a place where Zynthian falls short, but I also know that this device is capable of doing this filtering, because it’s a computer and I have access to modify or add things, unlike for instance an Akai Force, which is also a Linux computer, but a closed one that my friend who paid way more than a Zynthian’s price for it cannot modify or extend himself, whether or not he knows the OS it’s running.
It sounds like the upcoming release will make strides on midi management in general, but in the meantime I’ve already got PureData doing the raw function of Non=127,Noff=0 but I haven’t quite figured out filtering for specific notes.
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I think a more accurate way to put this would be, “The dev team has not spent time focusing on midi routing functionality as a core Zynthian system service.”
The fact it is “just a computer” means it’s potentially anything that a computer can be, which means it’s potentially anything that is currently on the market, adjusted for UI and copyright. Like any other Libre project, it is anything, it’s just not everything, yet.